MIA Facts Site

Report of the
Senate Select Committee
on
POW-MIA Affairs:
Appendix 6e

Leaks Kerry
09/24/92 ...as Chairman, I feel very, very
strongly that I do not want this
Committee's efforts to be sullied by
personal agenda, or by people who
want to be reckless with partial
facts.

Leaks Kissinger
09/22/92 Mr. Chairman, this is the record.
Yet leaks from this inquiry have been
suggesting: That those who had
refused to abandon America's
Vietnamese allies, supposedly
abandoned American prisoners; that
those who struggled to husband the
leverage necessary to bring about the
release of American prisoners were
insufficiently attentive to the fates
of remaining MIAs; and that those who
were prepared to use force to compel
Hanoi's compliance were guilty of not
doing enough to enforce the
agreements.

Leaks Smith
09/24/92 After reading the column and
communicating with Senator Kerry, I
wondered whether I was at the same
meeting.

Left Behind -
Shields
Statement Kerry
09/24/92 Lieutenant Commander Vincent D.
Monroe, downed in Ne On Province,
North Vietnam, May 18th, 1968.
Emergency radio signals were received
from Lieutenant Commander Monroe and
his crew member, whose status as a
prisoner has been acknowledged by
North Vietnam. Radio Hanoi announced
the capture of two pilots at the time
and the place of Lieutenant Commander
Monroe's loss. Now you called him a
prisoner. They acknowledged his as a
prisoner. You stood up and said he
was a prisoner. He did not come home,
and then you say there are no
indications anybody is alive.

Left Behind Sieverts
continued
06/25/92 against their will in captivity --
the lengths they would go, one way or
another, to let us know of this. It
bears on the photographs, for
example. The idea of Americans
cheerfully being photographed and not
using that opportunity to somehow
convey who they are and what the
circumstances are is beyond my
imagination.

Lists Kerry
09/21/92 Getting the list before the
agreement...the idea would be compare
the lists and make some detailed man-
by-man attempt to determine whether
or not their list tracked with our
list. That was not done...it was
agreed in 1971 that it would not be
done. And all of the testimony that
we heard earlier from Secretary Laird
saying I was at Henry all the time
trying to get him to make sure it did
not happen, that deal was cut in
1971. There was no effort,
apparently, from the meeting in 1972,
no effort to say to the North
Vietnamese, this is unacceptable. It
was accepted as a condition because
it had been prenegotiated in 1971.

Lists Kissinger
09/22/92 Chairman Kerry: Your response to that
was, we could exchange lists of the
prisoners that we hold and then start
exchanging prisoners and not haggle
about who is or is not a prisoner.
Kissinger: So this phrase of not
haggling was -- had only to do with
the technical problem. Do we present
our list first and wait, or do we see
what they give us and then complain
about it.

Chairman Kerry: ...in effect, you
moved the haggling. Instead of
haggling name for name before the
signing, you left yourself haggling
name for name until 20 years later
and we are haggling name for name
today.

Kissinger: Senator, we would have
been delighted to get their lists
before the signing. That was
something that they were never
prepared to do, and we, therefore,
had to make the best arrangement
possible.

Lists Laird
09/21/92 Chairman Kerry: It was your gut
feeling that the lists were not
complete, is that what you are
saying?

Laird: It was my gut feeling that
there were more. When I left, I
think that we felt at that time -- I
think the last figures that we had
were that the list of POWs probably
would contain quite a few more names
than that. We were disappointed with
the list because I hoped that there
would be more on the list.

Lists Laird
09/21/92 We weren't -- by the way, I wasn't
being critical of the Kennedy list or
the Cora Weiss list. We were glad to
get that information, but it was not
complete information and we knew of
the existence of other POWs when
those lists were delivered to us...

Lists Laird
09/21/92 We were not getting much information
from the Vietnamese at that
particular time. The Vietnamese, of
course, made the Kennedy list, the
North Vietnamese. The source of that
list was the North Vietnamese and the
Cora Weiss list was also from the
North Vietnamese. And they were
confirmations of POWs.

Lists Laird
09/21/92 We had several lists given to us.
There was the early list that was
given by Cora Weiss, which I think
you are familiar with, who was a
peace activist. Then the Kennedy
list came, and there was a
discrepancy between the Cora Weiss
list and the Kennedy list. It was
about five difference in those two
lists. I felt that those lists were
inadequate. We had firm letter
confirmations of at least 26 or 27
people that we knew of confirmed by
letters that were alive at that
particular time.

Lists Lord
09/21/92 Chairman Kerry: ...It appears to
me... that we had agreed on the 16th
of August 1971 that there was only,
in regard to POW, going to be an
exchange of lists at the moment that
we all signed the agreements. And
the question that I have got is were
you aware that the Secretary of
Defense and others in the defense
agencies were arguing that we should
get a preliminary release, and if so,
why was it not more forcefully
presented at this meeting?

Lord: ...we did whittle down our
positions, no question about it. I
didn't recall the precise date and
meeting until I read this document.
As I say, I do not recall others
pressing us to get the lists ahead of
time, but it would be a natural
objective that you would to have
certainly be better than getting it
the day of the agreement.

Lists Mooney
01/22/92 My testimony, sir, is that I had a
list of Americans who were captured
alive in enemy hands with our
knowledge of the specific units of
those enemies down to battalion,
division or regiment, or up to
division or higher than division, and
that the last information was that
they were alive and well in enemy
hands... there were approximately 305
on the list. At Homecoming I, about
five percent of those were returned.
That brought the list down to about
293, 294. Now, what I have recovered
of the names that were on that
original list is approximately 140 or
maybe 120 names...

Lists Mooney
01/22/92 ...looking back on it... we should
have known better, and maybe if we
would have pushed a little harder
when we had the power and authority,
we might have been able to do
something. But in '73, we should have
at least insisted on getting that
original list of 15 or 16 names up in
print, which we had flagged kiddingly
as the Kissinger list.

Lists Mooney
01/22/92 . . . the political requirements of
the Vietnamese were higher than the
tactical and strategic. They wanted
warm bodies to jack up the numbers to
appease Kissinger.

Lists Mooney
01/22/92 My boss... told me to my face... that
if you're going to put it on a list,
we want to be able to sign it, and we
want to be able for the policy-makers
to be able to do something with it.
So keep it tight... If I hadn't kept
it tight, per his instruction, my
list could probably have been another
60 to 70 names.

Lists Shields
06/25/92 Another significant list is the one
passed by the DRV to representatives
of the U.S. Government in Paris in
January, 1973 as required by the
Paris Peace Accords.

Lists Shields
06/25/92 This list was not accepted by us as a
complete accounting for those held
prisoner or for those who died in
captivity. First, that list did not
include the names of those prisoners
missing in Laos. It also omitted the
names of men we knew to have been in
captivity at one time.

Lists Shields
06/25/92 We knew immediately upon receiving
this list of those said to have died
in captivity, that men whom we knew
had, at one time, been alive and in
captivity were omitted from the list
altogether. After briefing those who
returned, we knew also that the names
of some men who may have died in
captivity were also not on the lists.

Lists Smith
09/24/92 for several weeks before the signing
of the accords in January of 1973,
General Eugene Tighe...was asked by
the Joint Chiefs to make a list of
American POWs that we could
reasonably expect to be repatriated
both from Laos and Vietnam. The list
contained some 900 to 1,000 names
yet...

Lists Tighe
06/24/92 I certainly remember the shock and
sadness at the paucity of the lists
of names we received versus what we
expected.

Lists Walters
09/21/92 Sen. Grassley: General Walters, do
you ever recall it being discussed
that we should exchange lists prior
to the signing of any agreement?

Walters: Yes, I believe there was a
discussion to that... But it seems to
me that was discussed and they, of
course, knew this is one of the
principal leverages they had with us.
They knew that our desire to get
those prisoners of war back was
inordinate compared to theirs... but
what I suspected is that they
wouldn't have carried out the
agreement and my suspicions were not
totally ill-founded.

Live Americans Andrews
10/15/92 I acknowledge that there have been
isolated reports POWs being held in
some areas in Laos, including Sam
Neua. But after giving these
reports, most of which come from
refugee sources, a full and complete
evaluation, the Department has been
unable to develop convincing evidence
that U.S. POWs are being held in Sam
Neua today, nor do we have any
evidence that they were being held
there in 1988.

Live Americans Armitage
08/12/92 I think what I'd say is I believe
there are Americans in Indochina.

Live Sighting Bell
12/04/92 Bell: Sir, could I make one point on
the underground facility there?

Chairman Kerry: Yes, sir.

Bell: The Bai Nim Conference Hall
sits across from the Mausoleum as you
know from being there. And they have
the meetings there of the Politburo
and the Central Committee. Also the
Party Congress is held there. And
you have high level dignitaries
there. They would have to have some
type of underground facility in the
area to contain all of those people
in the event of an emergency...

Live Americans Brooks
12/01/92 ...I found no compelling evidence of
alive POWs held in the official
prison system of the North
Vietnamese... I was persuaded that
there was, indeed, compelling
evidence that in 1973... to cause me
to believe that there probably were
people alive in 1973 in Laos.

Live Americans Cawthorne
11/07/91 I think if one looks at the evidence,
piece by piece, one doesn't get
anywhere. You don't see the wood for
the trees... it's a seamless, carpet
of evidence that comes from during
the war and beyond.

Live Americans Chagnon
10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: At any rate, in your
years, no one has ever come to you
with a secret key and offered or
whispered to you that up here there
are some Americans. You have never
hear that. Nobody has ever --

Chagnon: Only the incidents that
Roger [Rumpf] mentioned in Vientiane,
which were very much second-hand
stories and which we turned over all
information to the U.S. Embassy. And
those did not prove to be valid.

Live Americans Childress
08/12/92 ...I believe there's a possibility of
Americans in Southeast Asia in some
category that is not defined.

Live Americans Christmas
06/25/92 Sen. Reid: Do any of you know of any
American servicemen in Southeast
Asia, like Garwood, who are still
there?

Sheetz: I do not. And when I met
with Vietnamese officials last summer
I asked the same question, as does
Vessey, as does Christmas, and I'll
let him speak for himself.

Christmas: I have no personal
knowledge, sir, that we have any
there.

Sen. Reid: You have no personal
knowledge. Do you have any reports,
any hearsay information that they are
there?

Christmas: Sir, we have live-
sighting reports that we continue to
pursue. But we have, at this time,
no sufficient information to say that
we have a live American in Vietnam or
anyplace.

However, and I would be the first to
tell you this, we don't have
sufficient information yet to say
that there isn't, and that's why we
will pursue any continue to pursue
these live-sighting investigations,
the last known discrepancy cases, and
through our efforts expand throughout
those three countries.

Live Americans Christmas
06/25/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ... with the job
that you have to do and the
importance of the job that you have
to do, it seems to me to be somewhat
like going to a baseball player and
saying now, Smith, you are going out
and you are going to play first base
-- which I used to do -- and you will
be batting third. Now Smith goes out
and plays first base. He does not
bring his glove because he is not
going to get any ground balls and he
does not take his bat up to the plate
because he is not going to get a
pitch...

I think the fact that there are live-
sighting reports out there, whether
you believe them or not, but the fact
that they are there indicates that
they have to be pursued...

Christmas: It does not mean that I
don't believe that live-sighting
report, and we pursue each and every
one of those live-sighting reports.
Unfortunately, all of them to this
point in time have shown that -- at
this time, we have not been able to
determine that there have been live
Americans.

Live Americans Christmas
11/05/91 If we find out the location of
Captain Carr or anybody else, there
is no doubt in my mind ...we'll go
get him. If he can't get out, we'll
go get him.

Live Americans Christmas
12/04/92 I would echo that, sir. I would also
state, however, that as you've
indicated, Senator, we pursue every
lead. We do not leave any stone
unturned, and we have in position the
operational plans to recover
Americans if, in fact, we should find
one.

Live Americans DeStatte,
Deeter, Bell
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Mr. Gadoury, as to
Laos. Do you currently operate with
any intelligence or evaluation that
suggests to you that someone is
alive? Is there any credible
evidence that says so?

Gadoury: Not that I have seen, sir.

Chairman Kerry: As to Indochina?

DeStatte: That's correct, sir.

Chairman Kerry: And you say no.

DeStatte: No.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Deeter, Sergeant
Deeter?

Deeter: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Bell?

Bell: No, sir.

Live Americans DeStatte
08/05/92 We shouldn't forget that those 300-
plus sources who accurately described
Robert Garwood, encounters with
Robert Garwood there, also said that
they had no knowledge, personal or
hearsay, of any other Americans
living or being detained in that
area, and if these folks were
acknowledged reporting accurate on
that, why should we question their
accuracy on the other?

Live Americans Gadoury
10/15/92 After eight years of searching
neither I, nor... personnel from
various other military units... have
found proof that any of our missing
survived after the prisoner release
from Hanoi in 1973.

Yet, as long as the possibility
exists that there could have been or
could still be, we must continue the
search.

Live Americans Grassley
06/24/92 Evidence exists, and the next time
that someone in the Administration
says that there in no evidence that
we left people behind, it is clear
that he or she is not reading the
same documents that the members of
this Committee and our respective
staffs are reading.

Live Americans Jensen-
Stevenson
11/07/91 There is an amazing amount of
credible evidence, [that Americans
are alive in Southeast Asia].

Live Americans Kerry
06/25/92 The evidence, to me, is still as
likely that there might be fraud as
that there is evidence of a prisoner. Live Americans Kingston
06/25/92 The JCRC work did not include
investigating the possibility that
live Americans remaining in captivity
against their will in Southeast Asia
after Operation Homecoming.

Live Americans Kissinger
09/22/92 . . . why they would hold prisoners
that they don't acknowledge, for that
I have great difficulty understanding
it. Live Americans Kissinger
09/22/92 I think it's improbable that any are
alive today. I honestly did not
think there were any alive in Vietnam
when the war ended. I have always
kept open the possibility in my mind
that there were some -- that there
were some in Laos.

Live Americans Larson
12/04/92 Mr. Chairman, I have seen no piece of
evidence at this point that would
indicate anyone is alive from any of
our researches, investigations,
surveys, or any of the data that we
have available. Live Americans Larson
12/04/92 Admiral Larson: ...in this last year,
we have resolved 143 live-sighting
cases.

Chairman Kerry: Has any one of those
live sighting cases given an
indication of either a live American,
or that there was a live American
there?

Larson: No, sir...

Live Americans Maguire
08/04/92 We conclude with the following
assessment. After years of post-war
searching, thousands of reports
evaluated, and every available means
of intelligence collection employed,
no single report or combination of
reports has ever been able to confirm
that American prisoners of war
remained in captivity after Operation
Homecoming in 1973.

Live Americans Needham
12/04/92 Sir, I agree. I would add, it is our
number 1 mission, looking for live
sightings in support of the DIA
effort. We react to every single one
of them.

Live Americans Rumpf/
Chagnon
10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: ...what do you
believe is the possibility that
somebody is being held?

Mr. Rumpf: ...if they were living as
local people were living, life would
be very difficult...A 10-year period
would be very difficult.

Chairman Kerry: Do you agree with
that, Ms. Chagnon?

Ms. Chagnon: Yes...

Live Americans Rumpf
10/15/92 Mr. Rumpf: I talked to a very few
people about the issue of live POWs
being held by the Government. And in
each occasion people said there were
no Americans being held in Laos. But
it was not an issue that came up
regularly. People did not raise the
issue until late in our stay there in
1989 and '90 when people started
coming to our house in Vientiane
claiming they had tapes,
fingerprints, bringing us sometimes
those kinds of materials, expecting
some money in return. And that's the
only time people really came up to
us.

Chairman Kerry: Did they ask you for
money, specifically?

Mr. Rumpf: Yeah, it was implied in
the discussion that they expected
something from it. We only said we'd
take it and give it to the U.S.
Embassy.

Live Americans Schiff
08/04/92 ...the U.S. Government position is,
while there is no information to
confirm that Americans are still
detained in Southeast Asia, the
possibility cannot be ruled out.
Because the U.S. Government cannot
rule out the possibility, the
Department of Defense continues to
aggressively investigate this
issue...

Live Americans Schlatter
12/01/92 Sir, the evidence that I saw over,
again, the period of time I worked in
the office leads me to two
conclusions. I think the evidence
supports the contention that if you
were an American prisoner of war and
you were alive in the spring of 1973,
the time of Operation Homecoming, you
came home. The second conclusion I
have to reach is that only the
Vietnamese know for sure.

Live Americans Schlesinger
09/21/92 I believe those prospects would be
very slim, Mr. Chairman, as of now.
But it's conceivable that one or two
may have survived. One or two, or a
handful.

Live Americans Schweitzer
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: But we do have
people come to people. I mean, we
have the reports. We have got them
laid out. These guys spend hours
analyzing them. They go through
them. You are aware of that,
correct?

Schweitzer: Yes, and that has to be
done. That is a valuable process,
and for the American people that must
be done. And it is the work of the
analysts and the investigators, and
it is a valuable process that must be
gone through. And I do not in any
way want to detract from the
dedication and the hard work all of
these men do.

Chairman Kerry: Well, what makes you
come to that judgment? What is sort
of the basis of your judgment nobody
is alive?

Schweitzer: Well, I have never seen
any evidence or heard any evidence
that anyone is alive in Vietnam.

Live Americans Schweitzer
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: ...you are speaking
from archival experience, and a
reality base that a lot of people do
not have. ... you have drawn a
conclusion here that is pretty solid
in your mind, and you have laid it
out to the committee that you think
this concept of focus on live people
is a waste of time, in your
estimation.

What gives you this basis that you
draw this notion that nobody is
alive? Is that a fair statement of
your notion? You think this concept
of anybody being alive is wrong, is
that correct?

Schweitzer: Sir, I've seen no
evidence that there are live
Americans in Vietnam.

Live Americans Sheetz
08/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Do you interpret any
of the live-sighting reports that you
have in front of you today as
evidence that an American is alive
inside Southeast Asia today?

Mr. Sheetz: That kind of clear-cut
statement I cannot make, and I don't
think there's a Member on this
committee who can make such a
statement. We have 110 reports. It
was 109 when I last briefed you and
there's been a new one come in. We
have 110 reports right now that are
in active inventory, and as we go
into the areas where those 110
reports are located, we take a look
at other reporting that's in that
same geographic area.

Until we run those to ground, I can't
tell you. That's not a cop-out. I
cannot tell you...

Live Americans Smith I might say in some respectful
disagreement with the Chairman, there
is information and evidence before
the Committee on specific
individuals. The question is, is
that information valid, and that is
what we are trying to determine.

Live Americans Smith
10/15/92 In view of the information put
forward at our September hearings
that we had expected more POWs/MIAs
to come home in 1973, it is incumbent
upon the Committee to treat the
information before us today, I
believe, with the assumption that
American pilots from the war could
still be alive and held against their
will somewhere in communist hands in
Laos and Vietnam.

Live Americans Sydow
08/05/92 Chairman Kerry: ...Out of those
several thousand, apart from Bob
Garwood and apart from the Caucasians
who were not American POWs, are there
reports in which you place
credibility of American POWs being
held?

Mr. Sydow: No sir. There is no
evidence of POWs being held in this
system.

Live Americans Sydow,
Sheetz, Cole
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Now, let me ask each
of you the relevant question as to
your countries or areas. Mr. Sydow,
Laos.

Sydow: No, sir, Vietnam.

Chairman Kerry: Just Vietnam. Do
you have any credible evidence today,
which you are operating on or working
with, that someone is alive in
Vietnam, a prisoner?

Sydow: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Sheetz?

Sheetz: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Colonel Cole?

Cole: No, sir.

Live Americans Tin 11/07/91 About this issue, I can say that I
know as well as any top leader in
Vietnam and, in my opinion, I state
categorically that there is not any
American prisoner alive in Vietnam.
 

Live Americans Vessey
12/04/92 It is almost beyond the realm of
comprehension for me to figure out
how the Vietnamese leadership can say
after X number of years that they
have no one and then say now we do
and we'll do it for X million or
billion or whatever it happens to be.

Live Americans Vessey
12/04/92 Now, I will tell you that based on
what we've learned over the five
years I've been involved, I think the
probability of anyone being alive is
far lower than I would have given
that probability five years ago. But
I'm not going to say I don't believe
there's not anyone alive. I think
the probability is very, very low,
but certainly it exists. The
probability exists.

Live Americans
-Offers Vessey
06/25/92 Sen. McCain: You have never heard of
any offer on the part of anyone in
authority in Vietnam to return
Americans in return for money or
assistance?

Vessey: Absolutely not. In fact,
just the contrary. The Vietnamese
officials with whom I've dealt have
said we cannot so it, whatever you
were to offer. We cannot do it
because we do not have any
[Americans].

Live-Sighting
Reports Bell
12/04/92 Vice Chairman Smith: Are you not
talking about the area around the
Mausoleum, Mr. Bell?

Bell: I'm talking about the Bai Nim
Conference Hall, right across the
street from the Mausoleum, sir.

Chairman Kerry: It is actually about
500 yards away, is it not? It is not
right across the street. There is a
huge expanse.

Live-Sighting
Reports Bell
12/04/92 The two morticians or technical
specialists that the ambassador
referred to, I believe in early last
year was reduced down to one person.
He resided in the house across from
the Mausoleum on the corner of Chuma
Ho Street next to the compound of the
Soviet GRU.

In May of 1991, this gentleman was
soaked with gasoline on the streets
of Hanoi and burned to death. And
the only facility or information
about that facility that I have heard
was that it was built on the same
order of Lenin's Tomb and there is an
elevator that goes down one floor
beneath the mausoleum. And the
advisors that came there, they used
the same plan to construct Ho Chi
Minh's mausoleum.

Concerning any tunnels in the citadel
area or the military compound,
previous reporting indicates that
there was or probably still is a
tunnel which went from Cua Dum Street
under Ly Nam De and inside of the Ly
Nam De compound. And this tunnel was
constructed back during the French
era.

Live-Sighting
Reports Chambers
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: OK. How many of
these are firsthand up here? How
many of those flags are first-hand
[reports]?... what you have is 920 --
928 minus about 200 that you say are
fabrications. That leaves you 728.
You have 225 that are first-hand,
leaving you with about 500 that are
hearsay. 225 firsthand.

Chambers: And the hearsay is
probably where the heart of this
issue is at. And the reason that
there is what we find is a problem
with this is that in addition to the
use of --

Chairman Kerry: 700 hearsay total.
OK, go ahead.

Chambers: -- Some basic geographic
flaws in the map where some of the
reports were plotted in the wrong
area, and I think we went through
this in closed session and again in
open session earlier.

There's a misunderstanding about the
nature and the use of hearsay
reporting. Hearsay reporting goes
from accurate renditions of what
actually happened that someone told
their brother or their sister and
they repeated and it's very accurate
to something that you heard, someone
else said it to someone, and by the
time it is repeated to one of the
investigators you can't figure out
what it is that they were really
talking about. And it's marketplace
trivia that people pass back and
forth amongst themselves.

Live-Sighting
Reports DeStatte
12/04/92 There's one other point that I'd like
to bring out. In the statement
released here on the 1st December,
there was a quote of the Russian
ambassador, and I quote from that one
December statement: "We have also
heard from the Russian ambassador
that there is a restricted
underground area beneath the Ho Chi
Minh Mausoleum."

This quotation is taken out of its
original context. The original
context was a partial transcript of a
briefing by Russian ambassador Rashid
Camadolin to two journalists in Hanoi
on 15 August, 1992. The following is
an accurate text of the ambassador's
statement in context:

"There is an underground area beneath
the mausoleum. It is restricted.
There is a lot of equipment, a
cooling device. When we built that,
we put in a triple generator system
in case of an electricity black-out."

Now, the ambassador also stated that
Russian experts helped build the
Mausoleum, and that two Russian
experts are at the Mausoleum at the
request of the Vietnamese Government
to preserve the body of Ho Chi Minh.
He said these Russian experts would
have known if any U.S. POWs were
detained at the Mausoleum.

The ambassador said he's never heard
of any prisoners at the Mausoleum.
In fact, he scoffed at the idea that
anyone could imagine Vietnam could
hold prisoners here. He said he has
spoken with many Americans about this
subject, and he noted, and I quote,
"those who are serious, who are not
playing politics, who are not playing
on the emotions of the families, they
know these stories are not true..."

Live-Sighting
Reports DeStatte
12/04/92 ...a BBC radio interview with
Ambassador Camadolin in which the
ambassador stated he was, quote, sure
there is no so-called underground
prison here in the center of the
city, and above all, beneath the
Mausoleum, close quote.

Live-Sighting
Reports Gadoury
10/15/92 Chairman Kerry: And have any of them
given you a lead that you have been
able to follow that you have
considered real or found to be real
with respect to an American being
alive?

Mr. Gadoury: In my recollection, in
all the people that I talked to,
there were three people who provided
information, first-hand live sighting
information, of what they said were
American prisoners or people being
held against their will. In two of
those cases, I participated in follow
up interviews and even polygraph
exams, and neither of the first two
individuals were determined to be
presenting truthful information. In
fact, there was indications of --
...Deception in each case. In the
third case, the Stony Beach office
followed up, and I understand that in
that case it was determined that
there was no substance to the
individual's report.

Live-Sighting
Reports Haig
09/21/92 Vice Chairman Smith: ...we get into
these definitions of hard evidence,
and iron-clad evidence, and
evidence... we have got hundreds of
live-sighting reports that have not
been all debunked. We have got some
other types of intelligence which we
will be getting into in a couple of
weeks...

...where is the proof that the men we
did know were alive are dead? Where
is that proof? Why do you not put
the same burden on that?... where are
they?

Haig: Well, the same suspicion I
have put on another foot. And that
is that the enemy that we fought
cared nothing about the lives of
human beings, including their own.
And I saw it on the battlefield, as
you did.

Live-Sighting
Reports Maguire
08/04/92 ...So far, the largest body of post-
war intelligence about missing
Americans is refugee source
reporting...Over 15,000 source
reports have been received since
1975, and that number grows every
day...To date, we have received
almost 1,600 first-hand reports. DIA
evaluates these reports and our
results are reviewed by an
independent channel made up of
representatives from other U.S.
intelligence agencies.

Live-Sighting
Reports Maguire
08/04/92 ...As of today, over 100 reports are
still under active investigation, as
we've just discussed...In Vietnam,
hearsay reports account for about
half of all live-sighting reports,
and they tend to echo the details and
descriptions of actual firsthand
reports. However, in Laos, hearsay
reports account for almost 80 percent
of the live-sighting reports, and in
many instances they are vague in
detail. Live-Sighting
Reports Mooney
01/22/92 Sighting reports, stand-alone
sighting reports are essentially
worthless unless they are cumulative.
They beggar more questions and you
can argue about them all day long.

Live-Sighting
Reports Schiff
08/04/92 ...In 1979, we received information
from a source who said he saw 50 U.S.
prisoners of war between 1973 and
'78, while he was held in Quyet Tien
re-education camp near the Chinese
border.

Reports like this one, where sources
describe seeing POWs with their own
eyes, are categorized as first-hand
live sightings. They receive our
highest priority for investigation.
We used all-source analysis to
investigate this report. We looked
at photography to locate the camp in
the area the source described, and we
found it.

However, the photography showed that
during the time the source said he
saw U.S. POWs in this camp, the gates
were wide open...
However, to be certain that no POWs
had ever been held in this camp, we
located some former inmates to ask if
they knew of any Americans held
there. These people all denied that
any Americans had ever been held in
this camp...

Live-Sighting
Reports Schiff
08/04/92 Each of the former inmates that we
had located from the camp provided
accurate sketches, one of which you
see here. In fact, the only person
whose sketch of the camp was not
accurate was the original source who
claimed that he saw 50 U.S. prisoners
of war in the camp.

The moral of the story is this.
Relying only one source of
information would have led us to
believe that there were U.S.
prisoners of war in the camp. Taking
a multiple source approach convinced
us that this was obviously not the
case...

Live-Sighting
Reports Schiff
08/04/92 ...the U.S. Government's intelligence
collection capability on the POW/MIA
issue is continually being improved.

Live-Sighting
Reports Schiff
08/04/92 ...as the U.S. Government's expert on
Indochinese prison systems, we
routinely study the handling of all
foreign prisoners in order to gain
insight on how U.S. prisoners of war
might be handled... The point here is
that within a few weeks of the time a
Westerner showed up in a maximum
security prison in Indochina, we knew
he was there.

Live-Sighting
Reports Schlatter
12/01/92 ...judgments of a source are a
fundamental part of intelligence
analysis. And the fact that some
sources are weighed and found wanting
is not an indictment of the analytic
process or of the analyst; it is a
fact of life.

Live-Sighting
Reports Schlatter
12/01/92 It's a fact of life that you
encounter people who either make up a
story or who really are telling you
the truth, but they don't have a
clear view of what they're saying and
they embellish a little bit, or you
have people who simply come forward
with a very straightforward story.

Live-Sighting
Reports Schlatter
12/01/92 The charge is made that we believe
everybody is lying. We do not.
Demonstrably, seven out of 10 or more
of the people who talk to us are
telling us the truth.

I found a lot of frustration. I was
frustrated every day I went into that
office and every day I left, and I am
still frustrated 2 1/2 years out of
it. But to then take the leap from
frustration to saying you knowingly
and willingly turned your back on a
valid report of a man that you could
have rescued is absurd. And that is
why I am so hard over on denying or
declaring the invalidity of the
mindset to debunk. Because that is
where I found that argument to lead.

Live-Sighting
Reports Schweitzer
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: Well, what do you
say to the live-sighting report
process? Here we are. We get live-
sighting reports. People come in and
say, I saw an American. What do we
do?

Schweitzer: I've never heard one,
sir.

Chairman Kerry: You have never had
somebody come to you?

Schweitzer: No, sir.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
08/04/92 ...because the initial contact with
that source -- our field collector
was not privy to all the information
have about a particular geographic
area in Vietnam, may not be aware of
all the subtleties surrounding that
report, we've got to go back to the
source in some circumstances to
sharpen up the original reporting.
We do that through what we call a
source-directed requirement, or SDR.
It takes a couple of months for that
process to work.

I guess we balance off the need for
thoroughness and completeness and
accuracy against the risk that we
would take in going off half-cocked
with half-developed or poorly
developed information in a live-
sighting report.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
12/04/92 Chairman Kerry: But as a ready pool
of sort of information, here you have
boat people. These are people who
hated the government. They risked
their lives, they got into boats,
they went out into the South China
Sea, they were escaping communism,
escaping the country, they had a
reason to hate it and foul it up.
And yet thousands upon thousands of
them said they had never seen
anything, is that correct?

Sheetz: Yes, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Now, is that as
relevant as a counterbalance in terms
of proving a negative, if we are
working with statistics, as people
who say they did see something as a
hearsay?

Sheetz: In fact... one of the
techniques we use when we deal with
this bogus reporting coming out of
reeducation camps. When we've got
200 and 300 inmates who were there
who said that they never saw any
Americans and then suddenly somebody
appears who was there at the same
time that says, you know, there were
50 Americans in this facility.

So you have to -- it's not enough
just to take individual reports and
throw them up on the map. You've got
to look at them in the context of all
that you know. This is another way
of talking about doing all-source
analysis. You know, evaluating each
report in terms of what you know
about the area and how that report
fits in.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
12/01/92 Things are on track, things are
moving ahead with regard to those
investigations. But the results are
not all in yet.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
08/04/92 Chairman Kerry: ...given the nature
of prioritization and the increased
access in Vietnam, that a live-
sighting report rendered in the year
1991 or 1992 would be the highest
order of priority and the fastest
resolved. Can you help me understand
why the bulk of those remain
unresolved?

Sheetz: ...before we send those cases
out there, we want to get a very
quick, thorough analysis of the case,
match it up with whatever data we
hold in our files, present the live
sighting investigator with a complete
package to go our into the field with
not only information on the
particular sighting, but now we're
also sending out, along with that
sighting package, all other
previously closed live-sighting
reports and hearsay reports that are
in that same immediate geographic
area.

We're continually refining the
process, I, too, am desirous of
having it sped up, but we can only
work it as fast as we can get the
reports in here, analyze them, and
get them back out. Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
11/15/91 DIA has held all along that the
report of the mortician that he saw
three Caucasians who were identified
to him by another person as probably
being Americans -- that report
stands, there is validity to that
report. . . . I am unaware of any
firm, credible evidence that
Americans were held against their
will after Operation Homecoming.
Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
12/04/92 What I think we were really referring
to is the notion that yes, there is a
foundation for that rather large
structure. And embedded in that
foundation, it now turns out there's
a couple of generators and some other
equipment that's related to the
facility. Is that a prison? I think
not...

Live-Sighting
Reports Sheetz
06/25/92 Sen. Reid: Gentlemen, what is the
latest live-sighting report that any
of you know of?
Mr. Sheetz: We receive them all the
time. The inventory of --

Sen. Reid: When you say all of the
time, it would not be unusual to
receive a couple a week?

Mr. Sheetz: Many weeks we could
receive two or three or four or more.
We have generally an aggressive
inventory that we are investigating.
Between 80 to 125, and about every 3
months, we hold a review board where
representatives of the entire
intelligence community plus the State
Department and the Joint Staff and
OSD come in and listen to our
analysts describe what we have been
able to do to resolve or otherwise
investigate the case.

And cases get closed out at that
point, and the inventory drops down
to maybe 75 or 80, and then over the
next couple of months it will build
back up. And we will hold another
review board. So it's a very fluid
figure.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sieverts
06/25/92 [Investigating live-sighting reports]
remained an active, if not primary
then secondary, mission of all the
American intelligence agencies to my
knowledge right into the
mid-Seventies and even to this day.
The problem is that the kinds of
information that began arriving after
'73 were qualitatively different from
what was coming in before '73. It's
not a question of attitude by
analysts, but rather simply the
information itself, and it's for that
reason that I drew attention to what
is, to me, a significant difference.

The absence of that kind of verifying
information in which the name or some
other detail that... would let you
know that this was real.

I have sometimes said that the very
large number of sightings themselves
raised incredulity. There could not
have been as many American prisoners
as the live-sighting reports suggest
were there.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sieverts
06/25/92 The very large number of these
reports should have triggered
caution, since it was clearly
improbable that there were ever
enough prisoners to correlate with
all the alleged sightings. It is
noteworthy that in most of these
reports no information was provided
on the name or names of the people
reportedly seen.

While the war was underway, we
received reports on captured
Americans which often had names
associated with them. This was so
even if the reports came from
indigenous, illiterate people who
would render an American name
phonetically.... it was the way of
validating that information. Among
American prisoners we learned so
clearly over the years that the
exchange of names was the highest
priority.

Live-Sighting
Reports Sieverts
06/25/92 My work with refugees has made me
deeply aware of the desperation that
these people face and feel.

Live-Sighting
Reports Tighe
06/24/92 ...the only way you're going to prove
all of these things is to go over
there at the point that is under
discussion, so you can query the
local people even or examine the
sight of a crash.

Live-Sighting
Reports Tighe
06/24/92 [In] 70 percent of those reports,
analysis that was done in our office
said that those individuals told us
the truth.

Live-Sighting
Reports Trowbridge
06/25/92 Sen. Brown: My understanding is that
we have hundreds of statements that
are sworn statements, where people
have passed a polygraph test,
indicating there are Americans being
held as POWs... That indicates
Americans are being held. Now, how do
we reconcile that?

Trowbridge: There is information that
individuals have indicated that there
are prisoners being held. Of that
information, we don't have convincing
information, or we have none that we
have confirmed.

Live-Sighting
Reports Trowbridge
06/24/92 Right now we have, I believe, 40
unresolved reports that talk about
Americans living freely in Vietnam.
We do not know who they are.
 

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